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Yersinia pestis
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Why is it here?
Submitted By WWDD on 09/05/20
FreeHovind, WWDD, Creation and Evolution 
This Discussion originally posted in the "FreeHovind" Group

The complexity the cell is often used as “evidence” for intelligent design. Creationists typically refer to the human cell, but fail to acknowledge the many unicellular organisms that inhabit our planet. I’m sure all of you have heard of the Black Death (a.k.a. bubonic plague) that killed millions of people in 14th century Europe. It was caused by a single-celled organism: the bacterium Yersinia pestis.

Just like the human cell, Yersinia pestis is a complex little machine with plenty of intricate structures and mechanisms. If it was designed by a creator, he did so ingeniously...and yet this single cell is responsible for the murder of millions. I’ve asked before why such a thing would exist. Why would god put so much effort into designing a death machine?

The answer I get is always the same: some vague remark about our sins transforming creation into evil. Evolution is given a hard time, because it suggests that RNA arose from non-living organic “soup”. But creationism is claiming that sin, an abstract concept, can create a complex living cell. So what exactly is the creationist rationale behind the existence of deadly bacteria, and how did they make their way into god’s little utopia?

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Re: Yersinia pestis
2 days - 2,415v
Posted 2009/05/20 - 13:57 GMT
you forgot the mitochondria, why would an organelle in our cells have their own DNA? and why would it have procaryotic DNA and not eucaryotic DNA? Science has the answers to those, but i guess the creationists don't want to know. If anyone does want to know i'll gladly tell them =)


oh and i can go on with a list for ages with this.
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Re: Yersinia pestis
2 days - 3,026v
Posted 2009/05/20 - 14:59 GMT
I would like to know.
 
I personally believe it's because mitochondria are driven to breakdown glucose into ATP and metabolism. It's genetic breakdown of RNA help assemble amino acids into functioning proteins.
 
http://creationwiki.org/Mitochondria
 
Interestingly enough, combining raw nucleotides with metabolism and oxygen is impossible, even in a natural sense. But life depends on all three functioning together.
 
In addition, the codons found in DNA follow specific patterns and designs in order to create the biological organism. Even the slightest discrepancy could prove to be cataclysmic to the organism. This "alphabet" of nucleotide selection and habitual assembly highly suggest's predetermined designation.
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Re: Yersinia pestis
5 days - 8,142v
Posted 2009/05/20 - 16:07 GMT
"I personally believe it's because mitochondria are driven to breakdown glucose into ATP and metabolism.'
 
they are the indeed a facilitator in the cytrc cycle and oxygenicphosfolysation (is that how you spell it in eng?)
but that still wouldn't explain why their DNA is so different from the host cell.
it's much more likey that it's a symboisis of a bacteria we intergrated WAY back in the evolutionary past.
why? because they have their own division cycle, separate from the cell nuclues.
 
"It's genetic breakdown of RNA help assemble amino acids into functioning proteins."
NO
it's not the brakedown. it's the "reading" of a set of codon's (3 base pairs that code for an amino acid) from a m- RNA strand that is copied of a DNA template.
yes, ultimately the M-RNA is recycled, but durign the synthesis in the ribosome, it's not borken down to produce protiens.
 
"Interestingly enough, combining raw nucleotides with metabolism and oxygen is impossible, even in a natural sense. But life depends on all three functioning together."
 
same story with Chlorophores.
does that mean god made them? no. because we have a natural explination for that. (although i better read up a bit more on this before i continue)
 
"In addition, the codons found in DNA follow specific patterns and designs in order to create the biological organism."
 
not the organims in it's entirety, just protiens.
the gene's are expressed by certain factors in the cell.
and again. if they wouldn provide a benefit, they wouldn't be there to be expressed. evolution explains their existance.
 
"Even the slightest discrepancy could prove to be cataclysmic to the organism"
 
only in VERY SPECIFIC genes. you forget that the vast majority of our DNA is junk DNA. and that we have 20 amino acids and 61 codons to code for em..so that's 2 more codons that code for the same acid (oon average).
 
"This "alphabet" of nucleotide selection and habitual assembly highly suggest's predetermined designation."
 
yet it can be explained by evolutionary theory......figure that.
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Re: Yersinia pestis
2 days - 2,415v
Posted 2009/05/21 - 13:03 GMT
I wasn't claiming that becuase the function of the mitochondria they have to been by natural selection. Oh wait I do! Mitochondria are so similar to procaryotes instead of eucaryots. Genetic studies show that. And the reason is concluded in the symbiotic theory, meaning that a long long time ago procaryotes started to live in symbios with eucaryotes to help their own survival and each other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_multicellularity
We see the same evidence for this in the genome of chloroplasts.
There are genetic properties that only occur in procaryotes and not in eucaryotes and that is one way to see where it derives from. Another is different origins of replication that only exists in procaryotes and have been found in mitochondria and chloroplast, supporting this theory.

I found this on the creation wiki u linked:
"Mitochondrial DNA also does not recombine; there is no shuffling of genes from one generation to the other, as there is with nuclear genes."

"Interestingly enough, combining raw nucleotides with metabolism and oxygen is impossible, even in a natural sense. But life depends on all three functioning together."
- That doesn't make any sense at all. First you say it's impossible and then you say it works. Talk about oxymoron.

"In addition, the codons found in DNA follow specific patterns and designs in order to create the biological organism."
- Yes they follow the pattern and design of the genome, not something that has nothing to do with it.

"Even the slightest discrepancy could prove to be cataclysmic to the organism."
- It's natural selection at it's work. We all have mutations in us and our cells. It's not so much falality mutations that occur. When it comes to point mutations and a nucleotide get's deleted or inserted, the effects could have a big impact if it made a stop codon or did a frame-shift. But mutations where a single nucleotide is changed to another don't have to have a big effect on the organism at all. It could be a "silent" gene, it could make the same aminoacid even if it was mutated and it could make the same protein with a slightly worse/better effect.
"There are estimated to be over 4000 human diseases caused by single gene defects."
Also a lot of diseases require several genes to be defect to show phenotypically.

"This "alphabet" of nucleotide selection and habitual assembly highly suggest's predetermined designation."
- 1. There's no "alphabet" of nucleotide selection.
2. Ever heard of the theory of neutral selection?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_theory_of_molecular_evolution

There's no selection for any kind of mutation, only a slight mutation rate for the advancement of evolution and genetic diversity. We need mutations to evolve, for good or bad. Mutations just happen and we have a system for dmg repair, but when the repair fails it ends up being a mutation. There are also different genetic strings of DNA that will activate homologue recombinations and genetic transfers.
You can't find it in the creationwiki, hmm strange... wonder why?
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Re: Yersinia pestis
2 days - 3,026v
Posted 2009/05/20 - 14:33 GMT
First, the world is far from utopia, my dear.
 
Secondly, As believers, we identify with all things, concepts, Ideas and behaviors having with them, boundaries. As I have said before. Every action, deed, word and thought has boundaries and carries with it consequences. This is entirely conceptual, but it has been a reliable system of patterns and predictability.
 
Obviously, this is a Theistic preface, so, if your not theistic or can't relate, don't. You won't get it.
 
Finally, concerning the mechanism's of cellular structure and functionality therein. Bacteria and virus's are fascinating animates and considered the entire universe is literally dust created from atoms, elements and molecules. Much of our anatomy and all biological life depend and rely on single cells, bacteria and viruses. In fact, a large portion of the human body consists of bacteria.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_flora
 
http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2004/10/65252
 
So, I conclude that bacteria and viruses are apart of everyday biology and in a natural sense, we are sitting ducks awaiting their enslaught. The bubonic plague is nothing compared to what bacteria can really do.
 
What horrific fate awaits humanity in our destiny that must surely lie to the hunger of the single celled pests? What hell awaits all life if not for some unseen system of preservation? If there was some guidance to the system. Some designation to that functionality, to call them forth or push them away for some purpose or reason. Why have we not all fallen victim to consuming bacteria already?
 
To your questions:
 
"Why would god put so much effort into designing a death machine?"
 
The same reason god designed everything else, for a purpose.
 
"So what exactly is the creationist rationale behind the existence of deadly bacteria, and how did they make their way into god’s little utopia?"
 
God is bound by the same law that he co-exists with and that co-exists with man. This system of "conceptual" law is always active, always on watch.
 
On one hand man wants to walk around cursing god and believers, and making a mockery of sacred and holy things, then turn around and question god's justice and grace when calamity befalls him, saying "What kind of god would do this?". Can he be "omnibenevolent" and "omniscient", and not just? Is he not subject and bound by that same law that exists in his being?
 
The Yersinia pestis did what it was designed to do, kill. Why? Because man subjected himself to boundless living, and then, a Curse. Are you living without god now? Are you living your life outside of boundaries and grieving the lord? Then guess what, your curse yourself.
 
Do you think it's any coincidence that we see a puzzle that seems to fit perfectly, yet, we are plagued by pests, disasters, troubles, strife and struggle, and yet still, live? No, of course not, there is no correlation there.
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Re: Yersinia pestis
5 days - 8,142v
Posted 2009/05/20 - 15:54 GMT
"Obviously, this is a Theistic preface, so, if your not theistic or can't relate, don't. You won't get it."
 
disagree, as an atheist im still perfectly able to think in the lines of a theist, i just don't find the points that convincing.
i think WWDD is also still perfectly capable of understanding a theistic argument.
 
"single cells, bacteria and viruses."
 
this sounds fishy....
 
1 the entire body is compiled of single cells. in fact. ALL life functions in cells, it's called the cell theory.
you cannot somehow compare our relience on life and then compare that to the sybiuoses we share with certain bacteria and viruses.
 
so you should, to be correct, remove "single cells" from that list.
 
"In fact, a large portion of the human body consists of bacteria."
nope, quantitaively maybe, but mass and volume wise, no.
you forget bacteria are MUCH smaller then your average human cell.
 
and the only place where we WANT bacteria in our bodies, is mostly in the intestines, where they allow for a larger variety of substrates to be broken down then out own DNA could allow.
if they appear anywhere else inside the body, they are removed as quickly as possible by the aspecific immune system.
 
"So, I conclude that bacteria and viruses are apart of everyday biology and in a natural sense, we are sitting ducks awaiting their enslaught. The bubonic plague is nothing compared to what bacteria can really do."
 
CERTAIN bacteria. by far most bacteria pose no direct threat.
 
"Why have we not all fallen victim to consuming bacteria already?"
because we have immune systems. and the people who don't die.
that's called antural selection.
that and the REAL nasty bugs are rare or are only aquired if you do real stupid stuff, like wallow in a swamp wiht an open wound.
something humans, or for tha matter most animals, do not do.
 
"The Yersinia pestis did what it was designed to do, kill."
 
actually no, it's "designed" to survive, it's a pretty nasty parasitic bacteria that has a effective defense mechanism against the immune system.
 
"Why? Because man subjected himself to boundless living, and then, a Curse. Are you living without god now? Are you living your life outside of boundaries and grieving the lord? Then guess what, your curse yourself."
 
tranlation:
"god sent it to punish us, you will suffer for your non belief."
how come lots of christians became sick then? are you saying all those people in the middle ages died because they "did not accept the word of god" ? because that would be a bold statements to make agaisnt people who followed their priest, and know not better.
 
 
"Do you think it's any coincidence that we see a puzzle that seems to fit perfectly, yet, we are plagued by pests, disasters, troubles, strife and struggle, and yet still, live? No, of course not, there is no correlation there."
 
indeed no corrolation, shit just happens, or god really has it out for us....why would he appear to each and everyone of us and just seal the deal that way? wouldn't that be easier....and i dare say, humane?
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Re: Yersinia pestis
2 days - 2,415v
Posted 2009/05/20 - 16:09 GMT
Nothing in those links said anything about viruses being an advantage. How does a virus fit in gods world?
I can tell you how it fits the real world. A virus consists of a protein capsule and it's genome of either RNA or DNA. It's a product of extreme evolution and proves we are slaves under our DNA. The DNA is so extremely desperate for self replication and reproduction. The virus is a great spreader of genetic material and inducing recombinations. Now we know it's a good tool for evolution and natural selection by killing those individuals with a bad genome and so the strongest survive. There's a theory (i don't remember the exact name) that states that our genetic diversity is so big that if a virus with the capability of whiping out the whole population, 10% would survive just because the genetic diversity. Also viruses are more prone to be active in conditions when there's a lof of the same individuals in a small area.

"Obviously, this is a Theistic preface, so, if your not theistic or can't relate, don't. You won't get it."
- Indeed. I'm not here to debate philosophy.

"Much of our anatomy and all biological life depend and rely on single cells, bacteria and viruses. In fact, a large portion of the human body consists of bacteria."
- As i stated above the purpose of the viruses in our enviroment is not to help us, but to get rid of the weak individuals and so it's good for the strong and bad for the weak.

"So, I conclude that bacteria and viruses are apart of everyday biology and in a natural sense, we are sitting ducks awaiting their enslaught. The bubonic plague is nothing compared to what bacteria can really do."
- Indeed we are. Antibiotics are failing because we are selecting for antibiotic resitance. I made some own experiments when i was in school and it showed that a bacteria already resistant to an antibiotic substans is easier to be resistant to other antibiotics.

"Why have we not all fallen victim to consuming bacteria already?"
- Healthcare and hygiene. We don't get sick as often as we use to. The thing about healthcare is that we counter evolution. It's not the strongest that survive, but everyone does. I myself have Hirschprungs disease when i was born and if i wouldn't have lived in this time i would have died because i couldn't survive on my own. our healthcare is making us sicker because even if you got a genetic disease you will still survive and reproduce and therefore that disease is getting more common.

"The same reason god designed everything else, for a purpose."
- Still didn't answer the question. It's like evading everything by giving an answer you can't prove nor disprove that leaves the action to our imaginations.
 
"God is bound by the same law that he co-exists with and that co-exists with man. This system of "conceptual" law is always active, always on watch."
- No he's defenitly not bound by the same laws as us. If he would then we could test his existance with the scientific method.

"On one hand man wants to walk around cursing god and believers, and making a mockery of sacred and holy things, then turn around and question god's justice and grace when calamity befalls him, saying "What kind of god would do this?". Can he be "omnibenevolent" and "omniscient", and not just? Is he not subject and bound by that same law that exists in his being?"
- Only reason we mock his existance is because those who believe in it are  not thinking. There's a lot of hypocracy in the bible and amongs christians. If they just would leave things that aren't them to decide waht is and what is not and leave it for the real scientists to find out we wouldn't have to put down so much time on debunking ignorance and bullshit.

"The Yersinia pestis did what it was designed to do, kill. Why? Because man subjected himself to boundless living, and then, a Curse. Are you living without god now? Are you living your life outside of boundaries and grieving the lord? Then guess what, your curse yourself."
- What is this? Another threat of "believe in god or you will burn in hell and die a horrible death"? The plague inducing bacteria was striving for survival and some bacteria are pathogenic because that is the niche they've found to survive. Things don't happen for a reason, they just do. If you find a reason then that is just speculation and is everyones interpretation.

"Do you think it's any coincidence that we see a puzzle that seems to fit perfectly, yet, we are plagued by pests, disasters, troubles, strife and struggle, and yet still, live? No, of course not, there is no correlation there."
- There is no puzzle and definitly not one that fits perfectly. We humans have the power to be masters of our own life, to make it the best and to be happy. I will cannot find happiness letting god deciding everything for me. I am in control of my life and i dictate what is going to happen to me according to my choices. Yes there are things that i can't control, logic does not tell me god did it just because of an unknown reason. In fact it's not an evidence for anything. Just that sometimes others has your life in their hands and i hate the thought of that to be in the hands of a fundamentalist or a super-natural being.
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Re: Yersinia pestis
12 hours - 1,085v
Posted 2009/05/21 - 1:59 GMT
Ok, here’s the part that confuses me. 9tails, you claim that god designed deadly bacteria for “The same reason god designed everything else, for a purpose.” But at the same time, you believe in the Bible which suggests that humans are superior to all other creation. Yet here we are, falling victim to a microscopic parasite. You’re against abortion, but you also believe that god purposefully designed something that kills innocent babies, pregnant mothers, and young children. Hmm.

“The Yersinia pestis did what it was designed to do, kill. Why? Because man subjected himself to boundless living, and then, a Curse.”

So are you implying that, had humans followed god and lived free from sin, the bacteria would not kill us? Because that was exactly the question I raised in my first post: by what mechanism did it suddenly turn “evil” (ie. start following its natural instincts to breed in a nice, warm, human host)?
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Re: Yersinia pestis
2 days - 2,415v
Posted 2009/05/21 - 13:30 GMT
yeah he actually want's us to stop being human, cuz let's face it. If we all stopped being siners according to the bible we wouldn't be human anymore. Is that what you want 9tails? For the whole humanity to just conform and be JUST LIKE everybody else? To blindly follow an ilogical faith for egoistic purposes is just beyond my tolerance.
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Re: Yersinia pestis
2 days - 3,026v
Posted 2009/05/23 - 0:17 GMT
No two things are the same, sir. I will say that if you look at the structure of organisms and the cycles of anatomy, you will find that death, extinguishment of a life, is not a natural thing. In the human body alone, our organs renew themselves every seven years, our death is not a designed part of our life.
 
I know what you will say, "That's a lie! Your so stupid, you fairy! I can't believe you would think that your tissue renews itself! You don't have the right to believe that! You don't understand science, your so dumb, that's a false dichotomy! You just don't understand how evolution works!" etc, so forth and so on.
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Re: Yersinia pestis
2 days - 2,415v
Posted 2009/05/23 - 1:55 GMT
"No two things are the same, sir. I will say that if you look at the structure of organisms and the cycles of anatomy, you will find that death, extinguishment of a life, is not a natural thing."
- Ehm what? The reason why we get old and weak is because our genes does not need us anymore. We've reproduced and helped our offspring survive and we survived long enough for us to reproduce. That is why our bodies does not put any large effort in to survival processes and such. Our telomeres in our chromosomes get's depleted and the cell either dies or becomes cancer. Death is a natural thing, how could it not be? Both life and death IS a natural thing.

"In the human body alone, our organs renew themselves every seven years..." Don't know the number for it, but it depends on what organ and type of cells.

"...our death is not a designed part of our life."
- And that my friend is why ID doesn't work. It's NOT designed in any extent.

"I know what you will say, "That's a lie! Your so stupid, you fairy! I can't believe you would think that your tissue renews itself! You don't have the right to believe that! You don't understand science, your so dumb, that's a false dichotomy! You just don't understand how evolution works!""
- Well i didn't have too, you just did ;)
You can't prove any design empirically and the only arguments for design is somewhat like "it's too complex for any of us to understand and so GOD DUNNIT!"
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Re: Yersinia pestis
5 days - 8,142v
Posted 2009/05/23 - 7:53 GMT
"our organs renew themselves every seven years, our death is not a designed part of our life."
 
that's a gross over simplification. the turnover rate (if the organs have them) differes greatly from organ to organ and part to part.
you brai for one, DOES NOT REGENERATE AFTTER YOU REACH 21! IN FACT.
you start , losing neurons there after you turn 21....ever hear of dementia?
 
not all cells renew themselves (especially neurons). whihc makes some part of the body, well old reative to the rest no matter how you put it.
 
but the real problem with aging is the body STOPS beign able to renwe it self.
 
YAY TELOMERES!
learn what those are.
evetually the homeostasis becomes to difficult to handle, so you die.,
of:
disease.
worn out organs.
disruption of homeostasis.
 
""That's a lie! Your so stupid, you fairy! I can't believe you would think that your tissue renews itself! You don't have the right to believe that! You don't understand science, your so dumb, that's a false dichotomy! You just don't understand how evolution works!" etc, so forth and so on."
 
oh you think you'd cut down the grass before us?
no dice,
 
what biologist in his right mind would deny that cells renwe themselves (celldivision).
 
you've yet again shown great ignorance of the understanding of biology, since you went out of the way to strawman our "possible" response.
 
oh and btw.
the only people who have been calling "homo" are bigdog. and he called ME a gay....so that  "fairy" part just folds back to bite you in the ass.
 
 
 


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